Shock Collar question
Question:
I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few advantages that I can think of. First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of clicking at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her butt hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something she shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or a clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer ways of doing this?
Response:
>I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my >dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know >that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, >either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a >remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have >absolutely no intention of using this on my dog,
<snip> Pretty much the end of subject. then. –Cindy
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer ways > of doing this?
Dear Stu, Believe it or not, Jerry gave us one of the very best suggestions. We filled a small can with pennies, closed it up, and whenever my dog did something wrong near us, we dropped or gently tossed the can with pennies near her. I don’t know if it was the distraction, or what, but this worked like a charm. It didn’t cost anything, and it worked well. So why not try that instead? Also I must add that some of Jerry’s ideas are working fantastically with my daughters small dogs. Jerry if you are reading this, thanks much, but you are still on my killfile because your personality comes across in too irritating a manner for me. I am posting this in the interest of total honesty though. Regards, Evelyn
Response:
"Stu" wrote – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there.
Let’s look at my case. My puppy on 2 or 3 occasions took a bite out of a couch on the other side of the room. Too bad, it was such a pretty couch. The bite was so quick that I didn’t have a chance to say anything coherent let alone have the presence of mind to say ‘NO’ and get a spritz bottle even if it was right next to me and spray her. If I can’t get to a bottle fast enough, could I get to a zapper any faster? Talking out of the other side of my mouth, I wonder if it would frighten a dog and develop a negative association to have you repeatedly running at her screaming ‘NO!’ and spraying her? I’m guessing that it wouldn’t take but a few times before she equated your coming to her (with or without a spritz bottle) as something less than pleasant.
Response:
> If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there.
Hi Stu, If you see her chewing and she hasn’t seen you , you could try throwing(lightly) something like a tennis ball at or near her. It’s not meant to hurt her but it makes her stop and think. If she hasn’t seen you , she’ll think there’s some all- seeing eye that watches her when you aren’t there. Alison
Response:
Welcome to Wits’ End Dog Training School Of Hard Knocks, stu. diane blackman is in charge of registration and tara o is in charge of doling out the CHEDDAR. Jerry.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer ways > of doing this?
Response:
Naahhh. That’s just the beginning. We’ll be talking about a lot of shock collar users here cindymooreon, like yourself and your Thug pals. You don’t encourage shocking dogs unless an expert like you or lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn are burning the dog…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my >dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know >that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, >either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a >remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have >absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, > <snip> > Pretty much the end of subject. then. > –Cindy
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had > my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get > a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I > have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to > get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she > stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on > the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts > her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, > if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of > clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her > butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something > she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or > a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer > ways > of doing this? > Dear Stu, > Believe it or not, Jerry gave us one of the very best suggestions. > We filled a small can with pennies, closed it up, and whenever my dog did > something wrong near us, we dropped or gently tossed the can with pennies > near her. I don’t know if it was the distraction, or what, but this > worked like a charm. It didn’t cost anything, and it worked well. So why > not try that instead? > Also I must add that some of Jerry’s ideas are working fantastically with my > daughters small dogs. > Jerry if you are reading this, thanks much, but you are still on my killfile > because your personality comes across in too irritating a manner for me. > I am posting this in the interest of total honesty though. > Regards, > Evelyn
If you followed the part that instructs you to follow the BRIEF, VARIABLE distraction WITH prolonged non physical praise, the behavior would extinguish, instead of just being interrupted for the occasion…. If you followed all of the parts that instruct you to not scold, confront, crate, intimidate, jerk, choke, or punish your dog, you’d quickly end up with dogs like these:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a bit of the > literature suggested I needed to assert my dominance and "make > the dog earn everything it gets." I tried this once or twice, just by > taking a stern tone of voice, and the results were terrible. The pup > got scared and just wanted to stay away from me. > That’s why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE Wits’ End Dog > Training > manual — that and the fact that Jerry is an all-around great guy. > The core takeaway I got from Jerry’s manual is this: make yourself > the center of your puppy’s world — his personal Lord Jesus. Never > give him a reason to fear you or think you’re angry. Love the heck > out of him, and you’ll end up with a great dog. > This has truly worked with my puppy. She’ll do anything I want > her to, if she understands, because she trusts me 100 percent, > and nothing is more important in her world than her relationship > with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy > Charlie
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two dogs, > two collars We now have one dog and no collars. > Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come back > in the yard and would run for days. The last time, Peach didn’t > come back home. > I used the Wit’s End Training Manual to learn how to train my dog. > She is now border trained. A few minutes each day reinforces > her desire to stay in the yard. She no longer runs out into the > road, I can stop her from chasing cats and she no longer cringes > when we walk around the yard. > I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the e-fence > and its collars. If you can’t get a regular fence then you need to > train your dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my > dog in our yard again. The price was too high:-( > ~misty > —– Original Message —–
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.breeds Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 4:14 PM Hi, Jerry. I’m not sure that I’m a 100% convert, or that I agree with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual … BUT … we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command. He’s still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he’s stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit more). For what it’s worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even if that was the only method that would work, I’d live with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho’). Best, ben Doggy Do Right and Jerry Howe I just recently looked at this newsgroup and I found it incredible. I do have a Doggy Do Right and have had it for about one year. It truly does work – at least on my Dobe, Chelsea. Chelsea was the unhappy recipient of several failed attempts at obedience training, both in a "class" environment and with a personal trainer. She is very high spirited and strong and, unfortunately, spoiled, since we are an older couple who doted on our dog. We were lucky enough to find Jerry Howe and to not only buy a Doggy Do Right, but to also have him personally work with Chelsea. His methods are wonderful and effective. Chelsea is not a dog that you will bully, and I wouldn’t dream of hurting her. After Jerry spent time with her, she no longer jumped on furniture, ate food off the counter, pulled me incessantly on the leash. She is calmer and we are all happier. Well, it is a very long story and I won’t bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say that Jerry Howe saved the day for our dog and for us. Marge Hoffman. (REWARD PAID BY DW.) P.S. You can send me the reward money, but I won’t sell you my DDR!
Response:
> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.
I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!
I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
Response:
Hello dobielover,
> Let’s look at my case.
You shock your dogs, dobielover… > My puppy on 2 or 3 occasions took a bite out of a couch on the other
side of > the room. Too bad, it was such a pretty couch. That’s why you lock them outside behind your shock fence. > The bite was so quick that I didn’t have a chance to say anything coherent > let alone have the presence of mind to say ‘NO’ and get a spritz bottle even > if it was right next to me and spray her.
Good idea not to do those things, cause that would make the dog fear you or teach the dog all he’s got to do to stop you in your tracks is to bite a piece of furniture… > If I can’t get to a bottle fast enough, could I get to a zapper any
faster? This isn’t about being fast, this is about being INTELLIGENT. Our lying dog abusing Thugs HURT dogs because they’re not bright enough to outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog. > Talking out of the other side of my mouth,
An rpdb convention… > I wonder if it would frighten a dog and develop a negative association to have > you repeatedly running at her screaming ‘NO!’ and spraying her?
Well HOWE ELSE are you gonna make the dog stop it??? You gonna just shock her from a distance? BWWWAHAHAHAA!!!! > I’m guessing that it wouldn’t take but a > few times before she equated your coming to her (with or without a spritz > bottle) as something less than pleasant.
Yeah. That’s HOWE COME your shock collar is so handy, the dog won’t think it’s YOU hurting IT. > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.
I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!
I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
Response:
Hello allison, Whatever you do as a distraction is NOT going to effectively break the behavior unless you follow the instructions for distraction and praise techniques as taught in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual… You’re telling people to do things that are going to keep them having trouble with their dogs, alison. I strongly recommend you study YOUR FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual before you continue to misadvise posters here… > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.
I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!
I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) Hello People, Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on > the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts > her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, > if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Hi Stu, > If you see her chewing and she hasn’t seen you , you could try > throwing(lightly) something like a tennis ball at or near her. It’s not > meant to hurt her but it makes her stop and think. If she hasn’t seen you , > she’ll think there’s some all- seeing eye that watches her when you aren’t > there. > Alison
Response:
I have remote "shock" collars for both my dogs, but don’t use the "shock" part. Most good collars have a setting that just BEEPS. I find them extremely useful for distance training and positive reinforcement. By just keeping this on them for a while, you can reinforce the behavior you want similar to using a clicker. It is all a matter of timing. I find it very useful when the dogs may be out of voice range since the beep gets their attention and they look to me for hand signals. As far as using it for negative reinforcement, I wouldn’t recommend it since she will begin to associate the collar with being corrected. Spraying bitter apple on our furniture legs worked wonders for us. The jar of pennies worked great for one of our dogs. The other thought it was a toy… Gotta love ‘em…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer ways > of doing this?
Response:
I to have an e-collar that I use only for off-leash hikes. I find that the good and bad sounds are enough to let her know if she’s good (coming on command) or bad (wandering off the trail into the tick infested woods). I don’t know if it would be effective for a chewer, a problem I never had to deal with. Some of the suggestions here sound good–bitter apple on the thing you don’t want chewed (not in the dog’s face), distraction via obedience commands.
> I have remote "shock" collars for both my dogs, but don’t use the "shock" > part. Most good collars have a setting that just BEEPS. I find them > extremely useful for distance training and positive reinforcement. By just > keeping this on them for a while, you can reinforce the behavior you want > similar to using a clicker. It is all a matter of timing. I find it very > useful when the dogs may be out of voice range since the beep gets their > attention and they look to me for hand signals. As far as using it for > negative reinforcement, I wouldn’t recommend it since she will begin to > associate the collar with being corrected. Spraying bitter apple on our > furniture legs worked wonders for us. The jar of pennies worked great for > one of our dogs. The other thought it was a toy… Gotta love ‘em…
snip
Response:
Hello Brett, If you use the penny can incorrectly the dog may treat it like a toy. The can is supposed by use to make a brief, impersonal, variable sound distraction, not to intimidate or scare or hit the dog. The sound must instantly be followed by prolonged, exuberant, sincere, non physical praise. The behavior we are distracting must not be totally distracted or removed from the dog’s reach. IOW, we don’t want to give an incompatible or replacement behavior. We want the dog to resume his malbehavior, so we can break it. The objective is to allow the behavior to begin again so we can distract and praise again. And repeat it again until the behavior is extinguished simply by the process of elimination, the thought of the idea being conditioned to have no fulfillment. Got it? I can explain it again in another hundred ways if need be. It’s all the same. The idea is to EXTINGUISH EVERY UNDESIRABLE BEHAVIOR in a few minutes using effective behavior modification techniques. There’s a little bit moore to know about distraction and praise. When we’ve got the dog conditioned to the technique he’ll refrain from engaging in "bad" behavior we observe him thinking of doing, by just praising him. So, let’s say you’re walking down the street and your dog spots a pizza crust he’s about to eat, all you’ll have to do is say GOOD BOY NICE DOG and he’ll remember he ain’t supposed to be thinking of that cause everything GOOD comes from you… Get all the information from your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggdoright.com Jerry. P.S. My students usually get a 100% reliable come command in one hour of EZ work… j;~)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have remote "shock" collars for both my dogs, but don’t use the "shock" > part. Most good collars have a setting that just BEEPS. I find them > extremely useful for distance training and positive reinforcement. By just > keeping this on them for a while, you can reinforce the behavior you want > similar to using a clicker. It is all a matter of timing. I find it very > useful when the dogs may be out of voice range since the beep gets their > attention and they look to me for hand signals. As far as using it for > negative reinforcement, I wouldn’t recommend it since she will begin to > associate the collar with being corrected. Spraying bitter apple on our > furniture legs worked wonders for us. The jar of pennies worked great for > one of our dogs. The other thought it was a toy… Gotta love ‘em… > I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had > my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get > a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I > have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to > get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she > stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on > the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts > her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, > if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of > clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her > butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something > she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or > a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer > ways > of doing this?
Response:
Instead of using a can of pennies (excellent tool, by the way) I’ve opted to use a small magazine. It just happened one night, when one of my furkids was rough-housing with her brother. I’d asked them to quit, and they were so intent they weren’t tuning the request in. I picked up a small, light weight magazine, and just tossed it in their direction. I didn’ t make contact with anyone, yet the noise and "flutter-flap" stopped all activities. They looked at me like I’d dropped a bomb. I assured them they were "alright," but once I had their attention they listened. I’ve used this only a few times, with success each time, and their "tuning me in" has really improved. Dogsmom
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that I’ve had my > dog, so I hope that you guys have gotten to know me well enough and know > that I would never intentionally do anything that would hurt my puppy, > either physically or mentally. However, someone had suggested that I get a > remote-control shock collar to help get rid of bad behaviors. While I have > absolutely no intention of using this on my dog, it does have a few > advantages that I can think of. > First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to get > help train her not to bite or pull on clothes, and that’s worked really > well. I’d say "No", then spritz her whenever she did that, and she stopped > that really quickly. So I think a "No" followed by an unpleasant (yet > harmless) event (getting spritzed) seems to work pretty well to stop that. > However, the main reason that this worked was because well, she had to be > right near me in order to chew on my arm or clothes. > If I’m sitting on the couch in the family room and I see her chewing on the > chair in the dining room, however, I can’t immediately say "No" and spritz > her, since I need to walk over to her first. Just saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. Instead of clicking > at the exact point that the desired behavior occurs (ie, as soon as her butt > hits the floor to "sit"), I could shock once she starts doing something she > shouldn’t be doing (ie, as soon as she bites down on the chair). The > obvious difference, though, between a shock collar and a spritz bottle or a > clicker is that a shock collar could be much more harmful. > What are everyone’s thoughts on this, and can anyone think of any safer ways > of doing this?
Response:
I don’t use a shock collar, so I can’t comment on that, but I have found a much easier way to keep the dog from chewing things he shouldn’t when I am home. I treat him the same way I would treat a baby who is reaching for something that he shouldn’t touch. I tell him "no", using his name to get his attention, and move him away and give him something that he can have. Also, just as you would treat a baby, there is nothing wrong with gating off rooms with your best furniture or fragile objects until they learn how to behave appropriately.
Response:
snipJust saying "No" distracts her > for a few seconds, but when I turn away, she starts doing it again. If I > could somehow say "No" and follow that with some unpleasant event from a > distance, I’m guessing that she would stop doing it a lot quicker. Plus, if > that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, she’ll > probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there.
I don’t think a shock collar would work for the above application, the timing is wrong. You state that your pup will stop what she is doing when you say no. If you say no, she stops, then you provide an "unpleasant event", you will just confuse her. And depending on her nature, maybe even teach her to fear you whenever you give her a command. For her chewing problem, as soon as she stops, praise her and give her an acceptable substitute. Keep a variety of acceptable substitutes on hand. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. snip
Well, your concept here is sort of unclear to me. If you mean work as in, end up with a trained dog, yeah maybe. If you mean work as in, clicker training functions just like a shock collar, no. Look, a shock collar is really considered heavy artillery in your training bag of tricks. If things are going well for you and pup, and it sounds like they are, you should stick to what you have been doing. And, as other posters have mentioned, you can apply the bitter apple to whatever furniture items she likes to chew. jdoee and Stacey Dog
Response:
Hello jdoee,
> Plus, if that unpleasant event happens even when I’m not right next to her, > she’ll probably avoid doing it even when I’m not there. > I don’t think a shock collar would work for the above application, the > timing is wrong.
No, SHOCKING dogs is WRONG. > You state that your pup will stop what she is doing when > you say no. If you say no, she stops, then you provide an "unpleasant > event", you will just confuse her.
That’s not the fault of the shock collar. The shock collar only BURNS the dog when YOU want to HURT IT because you wasn’t bright enough to teach the dog what you wanted to. > And depending on her nature,
Dogs do not vary in HOWE much they fear and hate getting shocked. > maybe even teach her to fear you whenever you give her a command.
That won’t happen if you learn HOWE to INFLICT PAIN properly, accordign to koehler, lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, lying frosty dahl, ron hardin, and ed w o pet loss dot CON. > For her chewing problem, as soon as she stops, praise her and give her an > acceptable substitute.
That’s stupid. There’s nothing there to teach the dog not to chew again. Seems you bums are AFRAID to learn HOWE dogs think and learn, cause it seems Jerry’s the only body here who’s got the skinny on teaching and breaking behaviors… > Keep a variety of acceptable substitutes on hand.
No, that’ll keep you replacing behaviors instead of EXTINGUISHIN undesirable behaviors. > Another good thing about this that I can think of is that it could > potentially work the same way as clicker training does. snip
Yeah, up till the PAIN. > Well, your concept here is sort of unclear to me.
Your concept is clearly wrong, to me. And since I’m the expert in this field, I suggest you go shit in your hat, jdoee. > If you mean work as in, end up with a trained dog, yeah maybe. If you mean > work as in, clicker training functions just like a shock collar, no.
You can train the dog to anything you know HOWE, jdoee. Sure, he could. > Look, a shock collar is really considered heavy artillery in your training > bag of tricks.
No. A shock collar is ABUSIVE and only used by incompetent dog abusers who couldn’t outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog if their lives depended on it. That’s why they tell you to killfile Jerry, cause Jerry’s blown their cover, BIG TIME. > If things are going well for you and pup, and it sounds like they are,
That’s curious, since he’s writing in about his behavior PROBLEMS, jdoee… > you should stick to what you have been doing.
He’s been PUNISHING and CONFRONTING his dog, jdoee… > And, as other posters have mentioned,
You mean your lying, dog abusing Thug pals??? > you can apply the bitter apple to whatever furniture > items she likes to chew.
INDEED. Instead of training the dog not to chew ANYTHING, in a few minutes of appropriate handling and training as taught in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual avialble for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com > jdoee and Stacey Dog
The true beauty of Usenet is that it’s World Wide and archived forever, and written words being what they are, should be taken in context. But no matter HOWE you cut it, you can’t change the meaning of SCREAM and MOAN or justify this: "On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained require much more frequent and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done," lying frosty dahl. "Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is something you twisted out of context, because you are full of bizarro manure." "I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But Destructive," amy "Get A 30"- 40" Stick. CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand," As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you are finished" "This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" "(stay on the ear until it does)" "(perhaps because the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn’t worth it)" "You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them more sharply" Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in" "but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch" You can press the dog’s ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb" "even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that" "Make the dog’s need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in importance" dahl. "Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold. "Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens, But You’ll Get Over It." mike duforth, author: "Courteous Canine." > Jerome Bigge writes: > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we > want to do. > And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe > states. > –Matt. Rocky’s a Dog.
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I’ve only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it’s counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don’t really care. > admit to buying and having success with his little black > box.
I think I’m going to get one myself for Father’s day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you’ll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn’t see a scam man coming by > Jerry’s posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to > him! LOL!
I don’t see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei."…….right. >Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?)
Response:
Sorry to disagree with you. But shocking a dog which really means applying a very short duration stimulus is not WRONG. Graeson, a two year old GSD, wouldn’t have made it to two had he not been rescued by a local GSD rescue. Graeson’s problem was that he just loved to wander. So after being picked up three times, the owners told the shelter to keep him. And we all know what that means. So Grae got adopted out and guess what. He still loves to wander. Nothing worked to stop the wandering. So the owner got a remote collar. Whenever Grae headed for the proverbial hills, he got a mild stimulation. Now Grae doesn’t wander. Period. Another shepherd I know of is dog aggressive. He was adopted into a home where he has a problem with another dog. To date, Sarek has run up emergency room vet bills totalling over $650. Now when he postures or growls at his room mate, he receives a minor stimulus. The number of incidents has been reduced and it looks as if the dog won’t find his way back to a shelter. To say that shocking a dog is WRONG is about as right as saying that using a remote collar day in and day out is the way to go. Neither are correct. The remote collar in the wrong hands will turn a good dog into a whimp, afraid of his own shadow. On the other hand, our local shepherd rescue has 9 dogs who are not trainable by conventional means. It’s a simple choice: work with a remote collar or euthanize the dogs. Hmmmm. I wonder which makes more sense. rick
Response:
Heelo RABSparks,
> Sorry to disagree with you. But shocking a dog which really means applying a > very short duration stimulus is not WRONG.
Stimulus? Like a medical grade static like stimulation. The manufacturer’s manuals advise it’s likely the dog will shit and piss himself, scream and try to escape and may bite someone nearby until they have become accustomed to being stimulated. They advise us to ignore it and it’ll go away. > Graeson, a two year old GSD, wouldn’t have made it to two had he not been > rescued by a local GSD rescue.
Rescued. Is that supposed to mean jerked and choked and shocked and locked in a box because you’re bad? > Graeson’s problem was that he just loved to wander.
That’s usually a problem of bad management and poor training, not the dog. If the dog is adequately bonded to the family he’s not likely to want to roam, cause he’s got his place with his pack. A few minutes of teaching the dog his boundaries and he ain’t likely to go nowhere. > So after being picked up three times, the owners told the shelter to > keep him. And we all know what that means.
Means the bums who owned him didn’t give a crap. Some dog lovers took him in. Nice deal. Getting jerked and choked and shocked shouldn’t have to be part of that. As long as we’ve got Thugs teaching people to jerk and choke and shock and alphalpha roll their dogs we’re going to have out of control dogs ending up in pounds and shelters and getting DEAD cause our pound and shelter helpers don’t have the training skills necessary to successfully train families and rehabilitate behavior problems in dogs to keep them the heel outta the pounds and shelters in the first place. > So Grae got adopted out and guess what. He still loves to wander.
That’s what my Family Leadership Exercise is all about. Bonding. Even without a tremendous bond a competent trainer can train a dog to stay within a perimiter. Dogs are creatures of habit and are easily conditioned. See my post "elephants." It’s about conditioning a behavior. The only difference between the example of the conditioned elephant is the elephant was necessarily conditioned from birth, because they used a force method to condition the animal, unlike myself, who will never use a force method to establish control because at some point it’s likely to be challenged, and I work predominantely with giant breed dogs who are to goddamned big for me to HANG in the even my "training" pisses them off. > Nothing worked to stop the wandering.
What nothing worked. You mean whatever the incompetent trainer tried before resorting to HURTING the dog with a shock device cause he gave up bribing and hurting him by hand to train him? > So the owner got a remote collar.
Because he didn’t have any effective non violent method to train the dog so he needed to shock the dog because he didn’t have the intellect to outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog. > Whenever Grae headed for the proverbial hills, he got a mild
stimulation. You mean he got BURNED. Did you hear about the case where the dog actually got third degree burns from a malfunctioning shock collar? It’s in court. The dog’s suing. > Now Grae doesn’t wander. Period.
Because he gets shocked. I teach my students to perimiter train their dogs using effective non force methods. Same idea as shocking a dog, except we don’t use PAIN or punishment, just conditioning and deconditioning techniques. > Another shepherd I know of is dog aggressive.
That too is often a fault of mishandling the lead and triggering the dog when the handler becomes concerned about aggression. That’s why I teach my students to handle their leads properly so they’re not pulling or maintaining contact on the dog’s collar and understand HOWE to properly use distraction and praise techniques to interrupt and break undesirable behaviors. And the beautiful part is, we can control the other dog too, cause we don’t need to HURT or FORCE them. > He was adopted into a home where he has a problem with another dog.
BRILLIANT. > To date, Sarek has run up emergency room vet bills totalling over
$650. MONEY DOESN’T BOTHER ME, the dogs gettin hurt’s what bothers me. > Now when he postures or growls at his room mate, he > receives a minor stimulus.
Which means to the dog, that when the Thug with the shock collar isn’t there, there’s no way to hurt him to prevent him from getting even for getting shocked all those times. Dogs don’t forget. They do understand where that shock comes from and they do know you can’t force control when you’re not there. That’s why I teach non force methods, because they condition the dog to do the behavior regardless of the absence or presence of the handler. Dogs are creatures of habit, and it takes minutes to habituate new behaviors, especially if they’re found by the dog to be more resourscefull than previous behaviors. > The number of incidents has been reduced
Reduced. That infers the probelm isn’t totally extinguished. That’s because in forcing the dog there’s no learning to accept the other dog, only to fear being burned in it’s presence. See my post "poison toad." That’s the difference between breaking a dog’s desire to chase a critter without making a big issue of things, like shocking them to teach "leave it". > and it looks as if the dog won’t find his way back to a shelter.
Let’s hope there’s enough of him left… if he does need to go back. I understand dog fighting is a difficult problem, but I’m very certain proper handling and training techniques will condtion even the most difficult dogs, if you know HOWE. > To say that shocking a dog is WRONG is about as right as saying that using > a remote collar day in and day out is the way to go. Neither are
correct. Sorry. You can’t justify hurting a dog to train them to this trainer because this trainer and several others he knows don’t NEED to HURT dogs to train them. And I’ve specialized in temperament and protection work nearly forty years. > The remote collar in the wrong hands
The wrong hands are those of the incompetent trainer who would pick up the electric shock collar to HURT a dog he wasn’t able to train. Therefore he should get the heel outta this business. > will turn a good dog into a whimp, afraid of his own shadow.
As with the medical bills, those aren’t my concerns. Lots of times dogs are made aggressive from shocking them. And that gets them DEAD. See the thread "1 step forward" where cubbe snapped at a child she’d been playing with till they walked into her shock zone… > On the other hand, our local shepherd rescue has 9 dogs who are not > trainable by conventional means.
Then I suggest they’re using inappropriate methods because the methods I teach are effective across the board. That’s HOWE come I specialize in temperament and behavior problems, cause I know HOWE. > It’s a simple choice:
No, it’s not choice. It’s cause they’ve run outta intellect. Simple. They got outwitted by a puppy dog. I can say that cause I don’t got to hurt dogs to train them. It’s either that or they hurt dogs to train them because the dog LIKES it. Somebody must LIKE it if they’re doing it cause I know it’s not necessary. And telling us it’s not painful isn’t going to cut it either till one of you shock collar trainers takes my thousand dollar prize money for dual shock collar training any dog to do anything. The true experts tell me my money is SAFE. > work with a remote collar or euthanize the dogs.
You mean you hurt the dogs to save them from the needle. That’s the same excuse koehler uses to HANG dogs. > Hmmmm. I wonder which makes more sense.
Neither. You’re using a bunch of incompetents to justify doing something unethical and dangerous and it ain’t gonna cut it no moore cause I’ve got effective methods that don’t hurt dogs, as do a few other decent trainers. Incompetent trainers who justify hurting dogs to train them based on their knowledge and EXPERTISE are lying dog abusing Thugs… they defend HURTING dogs to train them because that’s all they know HOWE to do. Either that, or they’re hurting dogs because they LIKE to. > rick
> I’ve posted on here pretty consistently over the past month that
<SNIP> > However, someone had suggested that I get a remote-control shock collar > to help get rid of bad behaviors.
Musta been someone he knows off the forum, our experts know better than to recommend shocking dogs to train the unless you’re an expert and know HOWE to HURT the dog properly. And they know dogs don’t have BAD behaviors, they have normal, natural, ordinary, reflexive, instinctive dog behaviors. > While I have absolutely no intention of using this on my dog,
Oh. It it’s good for one it should be good for all unless they’re like allergic or something. I’m allergic to PAIN and FEAR. I don’t think anybody should be subjected to pain and fear. Do you? NO, that’s why you’re HURTING and INTIMIDATING the dog in the first place, isn’t it? Ever heard of allelomimetic behavior? Means everything we say and do to our dogs, they’re going to copy as our professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer likes to call it in the scientific terminology. >it does have a few advantages that I can think of.
Means if you get lucky and it works you don’t have to kill the dog because you don’t know HOWE to train IT. After all, shocking a dog IS moore humane than choking them I think. Don’t you agree? Of course, choking dogs should be outlawed and severe penalties instituted for professional trainers who NEED to use pronged spiked pinch and choke collars. HOWE’S that hit ya? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> First of all, I’ve used a spray bottle with some diluted Bitter Apple to > get help train her not to bite or
… read more »
Response:
Hello Brenda, Most of our people use the same methods, and they don’t work quickly or effectively, that’s why they crate, shock, choke, and kill their dogs. My student’s learn HOWE to control all dog behaviors in a few minutes using effective non force, scientific and psychological conditioning and desensitization techniques as taught in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual available for FREE at http://www.doggydoright.com. Just ask if you need help with it. Jerry.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t use a shock collar, so I can’t comment on that, but I have > found a much easier way to keep the dog from chewing things he > shouldn’t when I am home. I treat him the same way I would treat a > baby who is reaching for something that he shouldn’t touch. I tell him > "no", using his name to get his attention, and move him away and give > him something that he can have. Also, just as you would treat a baby, > there is nothing wrong with gating off rooms with your best furniture > or fragile objects until they learn how to behave appropriately.
Response:
I found your response specious, your attitude "over the top", and we won’t get into the English.
Response:
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